After reading some *dog forums* I often wonder if some people know the difference between conversations and lectures? It’s funny how some people you enjoy getting together with to share ideas and others you find yourself tuning out. Good conversations get your creative juices flowing. To me, “to converse” implies a two way street – lectures tend to be a one way street (“my way or the highway”). Of course, you can and do learn from a lectures (depending on how it’s given) but I believe conversation encourages interactions … and when that occurs there is more involvement from both parties.
So, you ask – am I writing about people or dogs … or … what does this have to do with dogs!
I try to have conversations with my dogs not just lecture them. Conversations imply listening as well as talking. It’s more difficult since your dog doesn’t speak in the same language as you do – but truly he’s communicating volumes if you learn to watch and listen.
If you are spending your entire training time fighting with you dog – then you aren’t listening.
If you’re dog isn’t understanding what you are teaching – then you aren’t communicating.
True, some dogs don’t care to listen and some can’t truly retain what they learn – but, you will never know if that’s the case if you don’t try and understand what and why he’s doing certain things. If I’m having issues with a particular dog I try to figure out a common denominator. Below are some *conversations* I’ve had through the years with dogs (because I listened).
I’ve had issues with dogs that were great on some days and then fell apart the next. So, I spend time trying to understand what was different on those days. For one dog – if the first work of the day went well then he was good the rest of the working session. If he did something wrong (first outrun, lift, etc.) he became so stressed the rest of the work session went badly. So, I changed my training schedule with that dog. If the first outrun went badly, I would just stop working. I usually tied him up and went and did chores or worked another dog. Then when I took him back out I made SURE the first thing he did went correctly. Slowly, he stopped getting so stressed that it was impossible for him to focus if he did one thing wrong.
I had one dog recently that started slicing on his flanks. He had always been a clean, cool flanker and all the sudden he became the opposite of what was natural in him. Instead of just *pushing* him out — I tried to figure out what had changed in our working routine. Finally came to the conclusion that it was shedding. He LOVED shedding and every time the sheep came near me he wanted to engage which tightened down his flanks. So, we worked on flanks up close – pushing him past the sheep in both directions. I hadn’t done a good job of having him understand my body position in relationship to shedding. I try to give clear signals to my dogs when I shed and he just hadn’t understood the language yet.
I’ve had dogs that would fight every time we went to work. So, I would work them up close to make sure they didn’t win the fight but at the same time letting them work sheep. Trying to let them understand that we were a *team* and this wasn’t a competition. It’s not a matter of *breaking* a dog but making it so enjoyable for him to interact with you, that he looks forward to it.
I’ve had dogs that became so reactionary they couldn’t think. I went back several steps in their training and concluded it was my whistle that *set* them off. So, I decided to go back to voice. Then I slowly added one whistle at a time and I changed the whistle to softer, lower tones. I could have concluded he was being a jerk and fought him every step of the way – but we would have spent all our working time fighting instead of learning.
I’ve gotten into training ruts and never varied the routine – I would have never noticed – if I hadn’t paid attention to my dogs getting bored. Again, the dogs were telling me what I was doing wrong … it just took me awhile to “listen loudly”.
Dogs are different, sheep are different – so learn to listen with your eyes and all species will be better off.
I did a review of Core awhile back (https://abcollie.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/pupdate/)
… so thought I would do one about Cove (his sister). Both pups are sired by Kevin Evan’s Jimmy out of a bitch that Carol Campion imported named Sue. They are a year old (January 2015). My two are as different as night and day EXCEPT for the fact they both are driven to work and both have talent.
I did not *click* with Cove when we started working – even to the point I thought about selling her, feeling she might *fit* someone else better. Then, decided she was too young for me to make that decision. For some reason, we just couldn’t seem to get on the “same page”. She wasn’t trying to be willful – she was just young and exuberant. I always liked how she handled sheep – I just couldn’t find the right way to communicate what I wanted to her.
She was similar to Core in that she was “weak” on her come-bye side. I solved his issue by pushing him out further and following him with a “get out of that”. He was totally fine with that “correction” (Go figure! He can hardly take any correction off sheep while Cove takes it all “in stride”).
Our (notice I said OUR – assigning blame will not fix a problem) issue was more complex than Core’s. Not only wouldn’t she cover on her come-bye side … she would reverse and go behind me rather than try and catch the head. This isn’t one of my favorite “traits” as I like a quick heading dog. I can control how far they go but can’t be pushing them over if they won’t go. She was *point on* for the away side … It was only the come-bye. If I tried to push her over (which worked with Core) she worried so much she started “trotting” (another one of my “least” favorite things :@) So, we seemed to be at a stalemate – both frustrated.
I decided I needed to examine our communication breakdown from a different perspective, so I could figure out why things weren’t going according to my “plan”. I started experimenting with things. I started downing her when she wouldn’t cover. This isn’t the way I like to work dogs – but since “my” way wasn’t working – I was willing to try something that wasn’t my *style* if it helped her. This “move” stopped the trying to go behind me and the trotting but still didn’t make her cover.
I finally decided – OK, you think that’s how to work sheep … I’m going to show you it DOESN’T work :@). We went for a walk up and down the pasture with her flanking behind me … the minute she would try and get past me I would switch my position and she had to go the other way (again behind me like she was always trying to do on her come-bye side). So, at NO time did she ever really get in contact and actually get to work her sheep. Then when I could *feel* she was determined to go to the head (on the come-bye side) … I let her pass me (running NOT trotting) and then I followed her. She covered (actually overran) … went back to balance and we fetched. We quit on that “note”. I hoped we had stopped “fighting” long enough for her to see I was trying to help her to get to a place she could control her sheep. Hopefully, this will allow her to see the purpose of what I’m asking her to do. She covers fine on the fetch when she’s opposite of me and is good at pacing and fetching. I will repeat the *lesson* if she tries to flank behind me (on the come-bye) instead of heading them. “Time will tell” if this made enough of an impression on her that she retains this information in order for us to move forward.
One of the most frustrating “types” to me is what I call “Groundhog” dogs. Meaning every time you go out it’s like day one all over again. I want a dog to build on the previous lesson. I want to increase knowledge “day by day”. I don’t want to repeat lesson one so I can go to lesson two … only to go back out and have to give lesson one and two in order to progress to three. My experience with these dogs is that have to be “programmed” – not what I think of as the “ideal” Border Collie.
So, her “next” big test — retaining and building on what she has learned or will she turn into a “Groundhog” dog :@)
Although It’s really to hot to work dogs this time of year – when you have a *bunch* of puppies – you just have to “take them out for a spin”. They are way to young to *train on* but it’s fun to put them on sheep and get a peek as “what might be under the hood”. I don’t believe in putting 8 week old pups on sheep (one unintentional “slam” can turn a pup off forever) … but once they are capable of getting to the head – I can’t resist giving them a try.
I’ve always said it isn’t how they start that counts but how they finish. That said – after all these years I can usually tell if I’m going to “connect” with a dog once I get an idea of how they interact with sheep. It gives me an insight to how much eye, push, feel they might have and I know what I *click* with. If I’m going to spend the hours training one up then it just makes sense to keep the ones I personally get along with. I have trained all “types” so I don’t feel the need to train just for the learning experience. It doesn’t mean the others aren’t going to be good dogs. I often hear … “well, if they are selling then there must be something wrong with the dog” and I totally disagree. Through the years I’ve seen – just because one person doesn’t suit a dog … doesn’t mean they won’t be good dogs in someone else’s hands.
Back to the reason I titled this “Hey – day” is because that is the extent of my “training” when I go out with young pups. I don’t have a down, a call off or any thing useful :@) I just try to encourage them to get on the other side of the sheep. When they are wrong … out comes my “Hey” … letting them know that’s not what I want – try it a different way. The rest of the time I’m giving them the freedom to learn THEY are the ones influencing the sheep’s behavior.
Let’s compare working sheep to driving a car. If as a teenager you were put in a car and told “drive” … more than likely”, you would be able to “get it done”. Why? Because through life experiences you had developed your eye/hand coordination (driving toy cars, riding bikes, etc.), But, let’s say – as a child, you had been restricted and never allowed to develop the skills needed to perform tasks that taught you “motor control”. Then, you are suddenly thrown in a car and told to drive …. the difficulty would become obvious – because you wouldn’t know how to coordinate your eyes, hands, and feet so wouldn’t have the ability to control the steering wheel and brakes.
Same with dogs – if they never learn (would that be eye/paw coordination) how their movements work in relationship to the sheep – they can’t learn how to control them. So, at this young age all I’m trying to do is say “Hey” (NO … don’t grip, run through the middle, etc.) and then let them work when they are correct. hopefully soon – you see them start thinking – OH, I did that! At “this stage” that’s all I want. I’m trying to get that thought process going “all the while” relating to me as well as the sheep. I can always put the obedience on later on … but I want to let the natural come out as much as possible to start with. So, in “other words” I’m really not training – I’m letting them work. I control the “situation” by controlling the sheep not them.
That doesn’t mean I just let them chase sheep – that’s not working. In “essence” I’m using the sheep to get the reaction I want out of the pup. When the pup tries to cut in … I move the sheep sideways making the pup flank out to head them. When the pup pushes to hard I push the sheep back making the pup “rock back” because the sheep aren’t going forward. All this without commands – other than Hey, sssssh, and good.
Border Collies have an uncanny ability to read and control sheep – I can’t imagine training without “keeping that in mind”. Why would I try to put my “instincts” in place of theirs … why waste the best thing about them?
Rumors of my demise are incorrect — just a “tad” busy :@)
I don’t raise a lot of puppies but for some reason (“Perhaps” looking at all the well bred pups this year) I decided I was in the mood for one … or 2 … OK … 5 but who is counting.
I usually raise two at a time. I find it easier than just one – they wear each other out and then I can spend “one on one” time with them after some of their energy wears down. Easier on them and me! However, 5 is a bit over the top!
I hate to admit it but I’m enjoying them – not as much of a hassle as I thought it would be. 3 are the same age (January 2014) and they play well together. The other two are younger (March 2014) and I keep them separate from the older pups as they are just to rough for them.
I have a large yard and the 3 are loose with a couple of yearlings most all the time. Then once a day I bring each of them in to interact “one on one” and teach them house manners. They are taught to be brushed, tied and how to behave in the house. They are also brought into the dog room (yes, I have a room just for dogs – full of crates :@). I feed them in the crates so they learn to go into them happily.
The younger ones are in very large dog run when the older pups are out playing. Then when I bring the older ones in … the little guys are turned loose in the big yard. Sometimes I let my older dogs out with them (if they are good with pups) to teach them “dog manners”. Pup manners are much different than “big dog” manners – and corrections are given without harming “recipient” :@).
Here’s a “run down” on the “kids”.
Cove and Core are litter mates. Carol Campion imported a bitch bred to Kevin Evans Jimmy and I decided I wanted to try a male and female. Carol decided she was getting a rough coat and a smooth … so I thought I would go with that theory (good as any :@). I usually don’t get rough coats because of our foxtails but I figured one wouldn’t hurt.
Cove is a pistol. High energy, full of herself and ready to take on the world. She doesn’t let anyone bully her but she’s “sane” about it. Her brother outweighs her (she’s not very big) but that doesn’t stop her from “bowling” him over when she decides he’s pushed to far. She’s independent but listens well when called or corrected.
Core is sensitive and more mellow. He is submissive to both females but interacts with them well. He is super sensitive to corrections (even when they aren’t “aimed” at him) so I have worked on that and we seem to be “coming through” that stage. He’s getting bolder and understanding a correction isn’t the end of the world.
Cale is very loving and gentle with people but stands up for herself with dogs. Marianna Schreeder imported a bitch bred to Kevin Evan’s Caleb … so I thought let’s compare a Jimmy and a Caleb. She now “plays well with others” – didn’t start that way (and I think she and Cove will have “issues” when they mature). She follows me around in the yard when I’m cleaning up. Very people bonded.
Rait and Rim are litter mates sired by my Gear so had to “give them a go”. Fernando and Marla Loiola owned the bitch and decided to breed to Gear.
Rait is a “spark plug” that will talk back if she doesn’t like what’s going on. She’s very high energy and wears her brother out regularly. Then barks at him when he won’t play with her. She’s not to worried when she hears corrections – attitude is “don’t bother me I’m busy”. So, corrections right now are verbal with me picking her up and making her do what I want (come in the house, etc.). We will work more on that when she’s older.
Rim is a lot more mellow and more sensitive (Hey, what’s with the “mellow/sensitive guys” :@). He’s not high drive … more of a thinker. He’s also more of a follower but has a hard time keeping up with his sister. He’s affectionate and leans on you when you pet him. When they are loose in the dog room he will hide behind a crate to get away from Rait (who never gets tired!)
I will post updates on the web page as they mature (if I live through it :@). I will start them this fall (and imagine some will be for sale when I sort through which ones will suit me).
For now I’m just enjoying watching them grow up.
I’ve been working a dog that needs help staying correct on his flanks. Trainers often talk about “shaping” a dog (usually in reference to flanks and outruns). I enjoy spending time trying to figure out how to get into a dogs mind (almost as much as actual training) to help him work better – so this particular dog got me thinking about “shaping”.
It dawned on me that not only do we shape the dogs we work but at the same time they are shaping us. We become the trainers/handlers we are because of the dogs we work. They define what we want or need in a dog. They teach us just as much as we teach them IF we are willing to listen and learn.
My first couple of dogs were “work” dogs. They always got the job done even though they were “rough around the edges” they never quit or stopped giving it their all. They taught me that dogs can and do have a “work ethic” and I knew I would need that in all the dogs that followed.
I like a dog with plenty of forward because my first “trial” dog although perfect for me at the time, didn’t have enough push. I had been told that sheep should walk the entire way around the course and I “took it to heart” and taught my dog that. End result (of course) was running out of time. So, that dog “shaped” my desire for one with push. This dog had perfect balance and pace but no push. Now, was that because I had “shaped” him to be slow and methodical or was that the ‘nature’ of the dog. I’ll never know … but I do know he taught me more than I taught him and I never made that mistake again.
Another dog I ran, had beautiful style, balance and pace and feel … but to much eye. As long as sheep were moving she looked beautiful … But, if sheep faced her she wanted to stop and stare when all she needed to do was just keep walking. So, she shaped me into wanting a dog with less eye. All that style didn’t get me anywhere if the sheep refused to move.
Then, I was “rewarded” with a dog with very little eye or feel. He got the job done but I never felt we had a ‘partnership’ because I had to tell him where to be every step around the course. Making me decide that perhaps … eye wasn’t so bad after all :@). It also impressed upon me … that I didn’t want a mechanical dog because I enjoy the interaction of handling a dog that reads his sheep.
I’ve worked dogs that only worked sheep by being pattern trained – never really understanding the ‘job’ at hand, never really knowing how to read their stock. I’ve worked line dogs that could hold a line to the next county but had no flank to them. I’ve worked dogs that flanked and had no forward to them. Some of these “types” can win dog trial by being handled every step of the way. Winning a dog trial didn’t make up for the fact that was not the way I wanted to work stock.
My point is … each and every dog I’ve trained, handled or trialed has put their ‘imprint’ on me. They have “shaped” me into the “trainer/handler” I am today. I have faults – they had faults but no matter what – we were both learning from each other – because I was always open to learning from them – sometimes what I didn’t want in a dog. Maybe, that’s why I buy and sell so many dogs … there’s nothing better than learning and what brings that out (in me) is a new challenge.
So, when you try to learn how train “by paper” (articles, books, magazine) try and remember how very complex this is. Everyone wants that elusive “how to train a dog” formula. The problem is that the main ingredients in the formula — the dog, handler and each’s experience — are never the same. I guess Nike had it right — “Just do it” and I might add enjoy the doing and the learning.
Students are always asking why doesn’t my dog listen to me? It all starts “up close and personal”.
In order for a dog to work with you … you have to be in his mind. He can’t hear what you are saying if he’s not listening. So, how do we go about teaching a dog to listen to us better — “communication and trust”.
When first starting a pup if your guidance gives him better control of his sheep (which is everything his instincts are compelling him to do) he will learn to rely on and trust that guidance. If everything you do/say makes him lose his sheep that trust will quickly be eroded. With young dogs the last thing you want is a conflict between what you are making him do and what his instincts are driving him to do. A “well bred” dog will do everything he can to listen to instincts before you. Which is great because this is what we use to mold him into the working dog he will become.
You don’t want to force his attention on you … his attention should be with the sheep. However, this doesn’t mean you have nothing to say about HOW the sheep are to be treated. He needs to know that they are YOUR sheep and you are allowing him to work them. So, he works the sheep and you work him – by controlling the sheep. You are working on his mind so you become an indispensable part of his wondrous experience called “sheep work”.
In the beginning you are developing his awareness that you can help him. The more he connects sheep work to you – the more he listens and trusts you – the more control you will have when you start increasing his distance from you. A dog at 800 yards DOES have a choice to listen or not.
If you insist on total control by doing nothing but giving orders until he “gives up” you are not building communication … because no actual communication took place. You might have a dog that obeys – but If all you are teaching is how to make random moves (flank/lie down, walk-up, etc) without the sheep reacting to HIS movements … then you are not using “instinct building blocks” that are logical to the dog.
That of course doesn’t mean he won’t make mistakes only that when mistakes are made – he will get a correction that allows him to work his sheep more effectively. Try to remember this is about WORKING sheep not making a dog move left/right. Working sheep is learned (more by you than the dog … since he at least has instinct to go on :@) by making mistakes then realizing your actions have repercussions and learning from these mistakes (actually – doesn’t that summarize life :@).
Eventually training has to go against his instincts (i.e. off balance flanks, stopping when sheep are running away, etc.) BUT hopefully by that time you will have built that “working relationship” that he trusts you enough to go to the next level.
A lot of novices tend NOT to watch the sheep’s reactions. Sheep are not inanimate objects for dogs to “play” with. They will learn “tricks of the trade” – and depending on your dog these can be good “tricks” or not. If your dog buzzes them with every flank – they learn to go sideways (trying to avoid the “buzz”). If your dog never takes pressure off – they will never learn to settle when worked. If your dog doesn’t put enough pressure on and then too much – they will learn to not move until chased. The “list” goes on … all the while your dog is learning all these wrong approaches to working sheep “up close” – he can’t wait to get some distance from you so he can become more proficient at them.
I know it’s not easy for a novice to combine the two at the same time … but if you want correct dog work … it’s a the only way. You communicate to the dog the correct way to work sheep and the dog communicates to the sheep that they will be treated with respect if they move.
Is that a bit like Deja vu all over again :@)
A couple of years ago I started 2 pups that were as different as can be. They both had talent and proved that the training time spent … was well worth the effort. Since I seem to be “at it” again … I’ve been asked to update on the “new two”.
One is biddable to the point of being soft – the other so driven he has a hard time remembering I’m “in the picture”. The are both young (8 and 10 months) so at “this stage” … all I am doing is letting them learn how to work sheep properly. I don’t train “per se” (no flanks, get outs, take time, etc.). Just using the sheep to teach them balance, distance, pressure, etc.
We will start with the softer one – named Cade. A LOT of natural talent but will have to be brought along very slowly. He can’t handle pressure (for now) so I put very little on him. He doesn’t want to be wrong and when he is – he just stops. All the confidence drains out of him and if I demanded “simple obedience” … I would ruin a really nice dog.
So, for now what I’m working on giving him more drive. So, when he gets a correction (and they all need it at some point) I can help him work through it without taking it so personally.
I put sheep up against a fence and ssssss him to just barrel through and get them out. NOT because he’s hesitant to go (he has NO issues with being afraid of sheep) but because it hypes him up. I push sheep and say “watch-watch” letting him flank back and forth trying to keep them together. He has so much feel this puts the chase in him – which is “the trick” I’m using to make him want to keep going when I see his confidence starting to drop. I will get to the point where I give a correction then a sssss and he will be able to take it and “bounce back”.
He has plenty of line but also good flanks (great combo :@) Too early to decide on the outrun but “think” he may have to be pushed out a bit (but not until we have our “confidence builder” in place).
Click HERE for video: of Cade just starting to work
The other guy named – it seems appropriately enough – Arco … is driven to work. If I walk out the door he says “you ready” and then runs to the sheep.
In “some ways” he’s the opposite “side of the coin” of Cade because when he’s wrong instead of stopping or slowing – he speeds up. He also takes it personally (just has a totally different nature and response). He can get him self in a frenzy if I don’t keep him in check but “getting on him” to much – makes him “run through” corrections. He needs to learn to take a correction and not try to “outrun” it.
He has one issue that I will keep “my eye on” … he never turns his head away when he flanks. Usually that puts pressure on the sheep but he’s bending enough that the sheep are held but not pushed. I may have to correct that later but for now – it’s working for him (and I don’t argue with what’s working :@) However, I think the issue may arise when we start working on outruns.
Click HERE for a video of Arco just starting to work.
For now – both are a lot of fun to work … different dogs – different issues – different year and yet “all so familiar”. I seem to spend 1/2 my life as a cheerleader and the other 1/2 as a truancy officer :@)